Set the 600ms dealy to half the repeats of the main delay, with a MUCH lower delay volume. 520ms -- feedback: 5-6 repeats - delay level: 20% -- delay type: analog, Money solos- Pulse version (TC2290 Digital Delay): Any delay with a 100% wet signal output can be set up in a parallel signal chain to do this. Guida Al Setup Di David Gilmour - Giampaolo Noto It's just like the old Echoplex unit, David bought an Echorec PE 603 model in 1971 that had a maximum delay time of around 377-380ms. - David Gilmour, Guitar World magazine. solo: 560ms NOTE: This website is frequently updated. 1st delay 500ms. The 4/4 delay can barely be heard on the studio recording and is really not necessary, but it is fun to experiment with two delays. How to Sound Like Pink Floyd: Amp Settings Guide Although it is not often that this roll-off effect was heard in David's use of the Echorec, you can clearly hear it in the echo repeats in the very beginning of the song, I started off with a Binson Echo unit, which is like a tape loop thing. You can also get something similar with one 650ms delay set for 2 repeats. When you have a drum and bass note landing at the same time it somewhat masks the repeat. That equates to 428ms, which we will call the 4/4 time. THE BOSS DD-2 DELAY - The 1983 Boss DD-2 was one of the first, and best sounding digital delays to come out of the early days of digital effects pedals. . David was very much in control of his sound system We rarely added effects to his guitar in the control room. For the muted rhythm part in Echoes, Program 3 is the closest, but almost any program position works as long as the delay time is set for 300-310ms. It was used for the early live version of On the Run in 1972, the third Money solo, and used on Pink Floyd tours until 1975. The 450ms delay should come before the 600ms delay in your signal chain. The second delay should just be accenting the first, filling the space between the 3/4 repeats. He has used this type of setup in his 1987-89 rig, his 1994 rig, and in his 2006 On An Island tour rig. Then I have two regular Boss units (DD2) which I set so one works in a triplet and the other in a 4/4 time - they're actually set in time with each other, so they combine and make a nice sound. One day, Roger decided to take some of the techniques that I was developing and try them out himself on bass. Volume 65% THE RULING CASTE: IMPERIAL LIVES IN THE VICTORIAN RAJ By David Gilmour The tempo is much slower, but the delay is played in 3/4 "triplet" time, exactly like RLH. Because later in his carreer David often used both a 3/4 delay, or what he calls a "triplet", and a 4/4 delay simultaneously, mimicking the sound of Heads 3 + 4 on the Echorec. It is actually dotted-eighth-notes, or one eighth note followed by two sixteenth notes. He would do this for each chord change in the intro to Shine On You Crazy Diamond, effectively doing both the keyboard and guitar parts all by himself. The Blue: When I'm recording I'll often set them in tempo to the track, so although they are just acting as an echo, the echo is rhythmic in away and has a triplet and the 4/4 beat in it. solo: 475ms -- feedback: 5-6 repeats - delay level: 15% -- delay type: analog, Hey You - Pulse version (TC 2290 Digital Delay): You could get some wonderful delay effects that aren't attainable on anything that's been made since. Echorec Style Delay Jamming - 428ms and 570ms. There are lots of different ways to use two delays at once for an integrated rhythm like this, so use your ears and experiment.. If you want to try the two-delay effect on one amp, it is best to place the second delay after the main 380ms delay in your signal chain, and set the second delay repeat volume MUCH lower, with roughly 1/3 the repeats of the main delay. extended version solo: 430ms, Rattle That Lock - 2016/15 Live version: I was able to dismantle them, put them back together, and change the head positioning. Tim Renwick solo: 520ms, Louder Than Words: David Gilmour Sound Part 4/4: DELAY & SETUP HISTORY - YouTube DELAY SETTINGS - Most of the delay times David Gilmour used in the early 1970s with Pink Floyd were around 300ms long, since that was the approximate delay time of head 4 on the Binson Echorecs he was using at the time. ..delay #2 MXR Digital Delay System II (switched on at start of unison bends when mirror ball opens): 720ms Below is an example using two digital delays in series. Often during the live songs that do have very loud delays, you do hear the repeats clearly. The Echorec 2 had six knobs - INPUT CONTROL (volume), LENGTH OF SWELL (number of repeats), VOLUME OF SWELL (volume of repeats), BASS/TREBLE (tone knob for the repeats), a three position SELECTOR knob, and a SWITCH knob that selected various combinations of the four playback heads. I change my echo settings fairly often in concert. It was surrounded by a record head and four playback heads that gave it a wide range of double-tapped delay sounds. Money solos - live 1977 version (MXR Digital Delay System I): His signature sound is a combination of mellow overdrive and clean tones, awash in combinations of delay, compression, phase, chorus and reverb. This way the echo repeat from one delay is not repeating the echo repeat of the other, and the original guitar signal is kept pristine rather than altered by going through two different delays. All of the settings for this tone can be found in this PDF download below. A bit of delay can smooth out the unpleasant, raw frequencies you get from a fuzz box. The exact delay times would be 450ms for the 3/4 time and 600ms for the 4/4 time. My sound has everything to do with what sounds good to me. David also used the triplet delay setup on many other songs such as One of These Days from Pink Floyd's Meddle, Give Blood from Pete Townshend's White City, Blue Light from David's second solo album, About Face, The Hero's Return from Pink Floyd's The Final Cut, among others. Multiply that x3 to get the 3/4 time and you get 427.5. Alans Psychadelic Breakfast with 2.2 second tape delay_Oct 1970. I think what makes the solo stand out is that it is dead on the beat which isn't as typical for Gilmour. Below is a medley of David using the Echorec from 1969-1977. For most of his 2016 tour he used multiple delays for those parts, but switched to using a Boonar Multi-Head Drum Echo digital delay from Dawner Prince Electronics for the last few concerts. SHINE ON YOU CRAZY DIAMOND 1-5 settings. Digital delays Gilmour used several digital delay units trough time, starting from the Wall in 1979. HH IC-100 amplifier with built in tremolo. Time intro - Torino, Italy, Sept 13, 1994. He has a 2.2 second delay on the guitar so he can play over his repeats, building up layer upon layer of guitar repeats. The volume swells can be easily created today with a delay and a volume pedal. Bass: 5-6. (requires a volume pedal before the delay in signal chain to create the volume swells), Castellorizon: Sort of a triplet on top of a triplet time delay. Members; 529 Members; Share; Posted December 21, 2005. MXR Digital Delay System II showing David's knob settings, Part of the effects rack from David's 1994 Pink Floyd tour rig with the MXR Digital Delay System II mounted in the middle, David's MXR Digital Delay System II rack unit from the On an Island tour showing a note for David Gilmour Lead Guitar Tone Tutorial - Time - GuitarLessons365 Electric Mistress - How to use it - Settings Assume a 100% delay level means the delay repeat volume is exactly the same as the original signal volume, so the dry signal and the delay repeats will be exactly the same loudness. Dave Gilmour Amp Setting - Ultimate Guitar The sustained verse chords and chorus chords (the "run, run, run" part) were also double tracked with the same delay time, but slightly less repeats. Volume 65% In the studio recording the 4/4 delay is not very obvious, so it was low in the mix, possibly only in one channel, or both. Another interesting effect heard in the middle section of One of These Days is the use of that same "triplet" time delay along with a gated tremolo effect. Solo: 300ms. Solo: 430ms, Fat Old Sun- 1971/72 live versions: Both types have been described as "warm" sounding, which can get confusing. One of the only audible examples of the multi heads in use in a Pink Floyd studio recording is the intro to the song Time from Pink Floyds Dark Side of the Moon. There are several reasons. 380ms -- feedback 7-8 repeats - delay level: 90% -- delay type: digital, Run Like Hell - 1984 live versions - two delays in series, each with a different delay time (MXR M113 Digital Delay and Boss DD-2): DELAY SETTINGS - Some of Gilmour's most commonly used delay times are 300, 380, 440, 480, 540, and 630ms. 8-10 repeats on each. There is a misconception that David always used the Echorec for its multi-head function, but in reality he primarily used it in single playback head mode, just like any other typical delay. You can also hear multi heads in a few early live Pink Floyd performances of Time and the four-note Syd's theme section from some performances of Shine on You Crazy Diamond. intro: 780ms, Coming Back To Life - Pulse version (MXR Digital Delay II and TC 2290 Digital Delay): The Echorec was an old school mechanical delay that utilized a spinning drum disk wrapped in magnetic recording wire rather than magnetic tape. 80x2 = 160. - David has used numerous types of delays in his carreer, both analog and digital. solo: 430ms -- feedback: 7-8 repeats - delay level: 20% -- delay type: digital, Time - 2016/15 live version: I do hear what sounds like multi-head repeats in the chorus section of the first band demo however, so that could have been the Echorec. David usually sets his delays in time with the song tempo, which helps hide the echo repeats. One of the ways to do that, is by using your effects creatively, just as he does. It's fun to just jam around using the unique delay rhythm it creates. It also stems from the fact that people tend to look at things with their wallets, and analog gear is often much more expensive than its digital counterpart. - Pulse version (TC 2290 Digital Delay): It is around 294ms on the studio recording. In the 80s and 90s David would mostly use digital rack models such as the TC Electronic 2290. That's another one of the personal esthetic judgments that you use in trying to get something to sound nice to yourself. The slide parts were made up of several multi tracked recordings, each playing slightly different, but similar phrases. Alternately, you can use 380ms as the long delay and 285ms as the short time delay, equivalent to Head 3 and Head 4 on the PE 603 Echorec, but that creates a slightly different delay rhythm than the album sound. You can also play in time with the delays in a kind of shuffle rhythm. Some delays that can do this are the Boss DD2/3, TC Electronics Nova Delay, Providence Chrono Delay, Boss DD20, Free The Tone Flight Time, Eventide Timefactor, Strymon Timeline, Empress Super Delay, EHX Deluxe Memory Man, TC 2290, MXR Delay System II, and many others. In this clip I have one set for 380ms for Run Like Hell and one for 440ms for Another Brick in the Wall (part 1). I'll keep this simple rather than going into an explanation of time signatures. But fear not, if you want a semi-authentic Echorec experience, Catalinbread makes an Echorec pedal that sounds very close to the original. ECHOREC DELAY - David was a heavy user of the Binson Echorec from his early days with Pink Floyd in 1969 until the late 1970s. Play the note, let it repeat, then play the note a second time where the 1400ms repeat would be. Set one delay for 440ms, 2 repeats, 30-35% volume. David Gilmour was the guitarist for English rock band Pink Floyd. His tone is instantly recognizable and unique. The Free the Tone Ambi Space pedal is my favorite device for this. Tutorial - Run Like Hell (David Gilmour) Delay Setting - YouTube David has used many different types of compressors throughout his career, but a few common ones are the MXR Dynacomp, Boss CS-2, and Demeter Compulator. Find the song tempo delay time as described above, so your delay is making one repeat per song beat, exactly in time with the beat. It only added a very slight gain boost to his clean amp tone, but . There are so many different delays available now that it can be confusing to know which one is appropriate for Gilmour tones. You might be tempted to make it ear piercingly loud, but trust me on this, a little goes a long way, especially when playing with other people. It has a digital readout, but it's really nowhere close to being accurate. Delay and reverb should be the last effect in the chain. >> Click to read more <<. Although he often blends different types of delays, creating rich textures and layers, I'm going to break it down into four signature setups covering each era. Then I play just the muted note rhythm so you can hear what it sounds without the delay, then I turn the delay on while playing. Pink Floyd is deemed as one the all-time best bands to ever exist on this planet. intro: TC 2290 Digital Delay and PCM 70 Delay: Delay 1= 470ms / Delay 2 = 94ms first solo: 507ms -- feedback: 2-3 repeats I have two units, and I have different echo settings on both. Even though the DD-2 delay chip only produced a 12 bit sample, the circuit blended part of the clean signal back in, producing a crisp, accurate digital repeat. A little later he switched to the MXR Digital Delay. alternate 2nd Solo: 540ms These are 5 note scales, pretty much the simplest scale a guitarist could use. And what I meant with using it as a reverb was that he tends to tune his delay to the rest of the band so that it creates a cohesive piece that captures their signature atmospheric sound. intro: 440ms slide violin intro: 300ms -- feedback: 8-9 repeats - delay level: 90-100% -- delay type: analog solos: 300ms -- feedback: 3-4 repeats - delay level: 15% -- delay type: analog intro: 640ms: feedback: 4-5 repeats - delay level: 25% -- delay type: clear digitalsolos: 540ms: feedback: 7-8 repeats - delay level: 25% -- delay type: clear digital, Sorrow Solo and intro/outro - Delicate Sound of Thunder version (TC 2290 Digital Delay): It sounds very complex because the delay is filling in and creating a rhythm in between the notes David plays, but it is actually rather simple to do. With regards to the actual sound of the echo repeats, there are essentially two types of delays - analog and digital. Also, two delays in line, while useful for some double tap delay effects, means that the repeats from the first delay are then repeated again by the second when both are used at the same time, which can sometimes create a mushy mess of repeats. Best Delay pedal for tones ala David Gilmour? - My Les Paul Forum He would do this for each chord change in the intro to, David did an early version of sound-on-sound way back in October of 1970, in one of the few times Pink Floyd performed Alan's Psychadelic Breakfast live. I use one of their old ones most of the time because the width is narrower. If the repeats are slower, reduce it. That equates to 250 - 240ms. Delay volume 90%. By the way, you might also want to check out our top picks for the best delay pedals, our guides to the delay pedals used bySlashandEddie Van Halen, as well as our tips for where to place your delay in the chain withreverbandchoruspedals. The repeats are bright and shimmery but not brighter than the original signal. Flashback/David Gilmour | The Gear Page Below are some specific Gilmour settings I use. Fat Old Sun- 2015/16 live version: The slide parts actually were played on a pedal steel, a Fender 1000, but David just used it as a slide guitar and removed the foot pedals. which is what gives the verse section that floaty, ethereal feel. A DD-2 was also seen in David's Medina studio around 2017. 2. A single delay set at 1400ms with 3 repeats has a similar feel as well. verse / chorus: 435ms, Wearing the Inside Out: intro: 425ms This was most likely a reel-to reel recorder set up for a tape-loop delay. As the chord rang on, David could then play the melody lines through his main Hiwatt. The primary delay sounds best when in time with the heartbeat tempo in Time, usually somewhere around 240 - 250BPM (beats per minute). Gear used: Telecaster into a fender twin Reverb and Reeves Custom 50, Boss CS-2 Compressor, Tube Driver set for light overdrive, Electro-Harmonix Electric Mistress, TC Nova delay. His final delay was the TC Electronic 2290. Gilmour used the same 294ms delay from the Echorec plus the built in vibrato from an HH IC-100 amplifier, which was a very choppy tremolo effect. This may be a form of Automatic/Artificial Double Tracking (ADT) or simply a short slapback delay. The 4/4 delay thickens space between the main delay repeats by double tapping your 3/4 repeat with a 4/4, creating a more bouncy rhythm. solo: 440ms. David played the first bass guitar you hear and Roger Waters played the second that comes in immediately after. You simply have to practice your timing so you can play the fills and get back to the D rhythm note exactly in time with the delay repeats. In this video I'm demonstrating how to set up your David Gilmour delay sounds and settings. Head 4 = 300ms (or 75ms x 4) .Head 4 = 380ms (or 95ms x 4) It covers all of the various ways he used echo - standard 3-4 repeat echo to make the guitar sound like it is in a large hall, using a slide like a violin with long delay repeats, slapback echo, swell mode, long repeats almost to the point of self oscillation, and what David calls "triplet" time, where he plays in time with the dotted eighth repeats. His first was an MXR 113 Digital Delay System, one of MXR's first rack effects. Below is a breakdown switching between the various tracks of all three solos. He set the time to 310ms for most everything. 1. Run Like Hell - Delay Rhythm Guitars Mixed Up Front - both channels, Run Like Hell - Sustained Chords Mixed Up Front, Run Like Hell - Verse Fills Mixed Up Front, Run Like Hell Live Excerpts - from Is There Anybody Out There - The Wall live 1980-81, David Gilmour live in 1984, the Delicate Sound of Thunder, and Pulse. The repeats had a warm high end roll off, similar to David's Binson Echorecs. DD-500 Settings for David Gilmour Style Lead Guitar Delay The SELECTOR knob had three positions: ECHO = one repeat, REPEAT = more than one repeat, and SWELL = outputs of the playback heads were fed back to themselves to create a spacey type of reverb effect. Delay volume 85% Echorec head 4 = 312ms / Echorec head 1 - 78ms Pink Floyds and Gilmours music is timeless, and the albums are a must-listen for any musician who wishes to define and expand genres. Mids: 6-7. slide solo: 550ms -- feedback: 4-5 repeats When using both the mono and stereo outputs together (each running to a separate amp) the DD-2 produces a very defined stereo field, with one channel being the dry signal only, and one being the delayed signal only. bass guitar rhythm delay (two bass guitars): 294ms, 7-8 repeats 630ms: feedback: 7-8 repeats - delay level: 30% -- delay type: clear digital, Sorrow Solo - Pulse version (TC 2290 Digital Delay): 310ms -- feedback: 3-4 repeats Head 2 = 150ms (or 75ms x 2)..Head 2 = 190ms (or 95ms x 2) delay 2: 275-290ms -- feedback: 5-7 repeats - delay level: 25% -- delay type: analog, Short and Sweet - David Gilmour live 1984 version (Boss DD-2): The motor had a fixed speed so one turn of the drum equated to approximately a 300ms delay, but that could vary slightly depending on mains voltage, and volatage fluctuations. Two guitars were multi tracked in the left and right channels. What is interesting about this performance is that it is probably the only time David is known to have used a tape delay. Other common delay times were 380, 440-450, 480, and 540ms. ..(later in song): 450ms -- feedback: 4-5 repeats -- delay level: 25% -- delay type: analog, Comfortably Numb - 1980-81 live version: From the 1972-74 period he used the PB first in line in the signal chain for his live rigs. The delays are set in series like this: DELAY TYPES - ANALOG AND DIGITAL - David has used numerous types of delays in his carreer, both analog and digital. Only the 100% wet delayed signal was returned from those two delays, into a mixer where the two were blended back with the dry signal before going to the amps. I use chorus, little delay and some reverb on my amps clean setting. David Gilmour used the MXR Digital M-113 Delay, the Binson Echorec, and the TC Electronic 2290 in his recordings. In a new tutorial, musician Tracy Evans demonstrates how to achieve David's "sound on sound" infinite sustain effect in Live, using the Filter Delay effect. That sounds complicated, but to recreate this sound all you really need is one digital delay set to 380ms, as David did whenever he played it live. You may also want to try setting the second delay at 760ms, double the triplet time delay (380 x 2 = 760ms). VISIT MY SWORDS, KNIVES and FANTASY ART WEBSITE www.kitrae.net. A few of David Gilmour's vintage Binson Echorec 2 model T7E delays. Free shipping for many products! ONE OF THESE DAYS - One of the first recorded uses of Gilmour's "triplet" delay technique using a Binson Echorec was in the song One of These Days from Pink Floyd's Meddle album in 1971. We are a participant in several affiliate programs including but not limited to the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites. Volume 85% One of These Days - gated tremolo section isolated. NOTE: This website is frequently updated. There are so many different delays available now that it can be confusing to know which one is appropriate for Gilmour tones. 2nd delay 570ms. David used his Workmate Esquire guitar for the studio recording, and usually used a Telecaster when playing it live. solo: 540ms -- feedback: 4-5 repeats -- delay level: 18-20% -- delay type: analog, Any Colour You Like - 1994 live versions: So why don't you hear the repeats most of the time? www.gilmourish.com this website has info on Gilmours tone and gear used. RUN LIKE HELL - This is one of the standout tracks from Pink Floyd's The Wall double album, with music written by David Gilmour. It was compiled by measuring the echo repeats in official releases and bootlegs of live recordings, and from delay times visible on the LCDs of David's digital delays. second solo: 660ms -- feedback: 5 repeats, Comfortably Numb - 2015/16 RTL Tour: Gilmour's Binson Echorec 2 model T7E from 1970-71. You just tap along to the song tempo with your keyboard and it calculates the BPM tempo for you. Listen to some of the 5.1 live tracks separately and you can clearly hear this. Copyright 2023 Killer Guitar Rigs. And lastly, youll want to mix it surprisingly quietly. Let's see some of the units he used over time. second solo before verse: 350ms -- feedback: 3-4 repeats A 300ms and 380ms delay had the heads repeating in these specific delay times. 5 A.M. : You can change the feel of the delay repeats by cutting the 600ms delay time in half to 300ms, 1/4 time to 150ms, or double it to 1200ms, et cetera. The primary reason is becasue the delay time is usually set in time with the tempo of the song, so each repeat lands on the beat. DELAY SETTINGS - Most of the delay times David Gilmour used in the early 1970s with Pink Floyd were around 300ms long, since that was the approximate delay time of head 4 on the Binson Echorecs he was using at the time. First is the delay, then the square wave tremolo, then both together. solo: 530ms -- feedback: 5-6 repeats, 5 A.M. 2015/2016 live version: The second is around 94ms, which is 1/5 of 470 (470/5=94). 430ms, Faces of Stone - 2015/16 live version: David's T7E and PE603 Echorecs, and even the stock Echoplexes at the time, were not capable of anything even close to that length of delay. This warble is similar to a light chorus sound, with high end roll-off. 500ms -- feedback: 5-6 repeats. It is impossible to achieve the exact same tone as a player without using the same equipment. Dec 23, 2015. David Gilmour Sound Part 4/4: DELAY & SETUP HISTORY Musicoff - Where Music Matters 129K subscribers Subscribe 1.4K 243K views 11 years ago David Gilmour ed il suo suono al centro della. 380ms -- feedback: 3-4 repeats, On The Turning Away - 1991 live Amnesty International Big 3 O version: Then I play the bass rhythm clean, then with the effects on. solos: 375ms. If the repeats are faster than the tempo, increase the delay time. Electric Mistress V2, V3, or V4: Sound Like Pink Floyd: Amp Settings And Gear Guide Here is my example of this sound. To add space to your tone, add a clean digital delay at the end of your signal chain. Unfortunately the Catalinbread Swell control cannot be set as high as it needs to be for the Time intro, but it gets close. Last update September 2022. second solo: 500ms - feedback: 3-4 repeats -- delay level: 15% -- delay type: analog, Shine On You Crazy Diamond I-V Syds theme - 2016/15 Live version: Blue Light Riff - with and without delay. He did sometimes use the Swell mode. David could play a chord while the delay rhythm repeated, and jump back to the delay rhythm before the repeats stopped, almost as if there were two guitars playing. David Gilmour has always made a very precise use of delays, since the early eras, even combining two delays to create his textures. Fine tune it until you hear the repeats are exactly in sync with the song tempo. DELAY SETTINGS - Some of Gilmour's most commonly used delay times are 300, 380, 440, 480, 540, and 630ms. This website is frequently updated. 5. He usually had the time set to 440ms. 1st delay 470ms. What delay pedal does David Gilmour? Below is an example of replicating the Syd's Theme delays from 1994. : 350ms, Breathe - studio version (several duplicated multi track recordings offset to create the long delay repeats): For the wet 1st and 3rd solos from Money I use basically the same settings, but I dial the mix knob up a bit for the third section after the dry solo. As the recording drum and playback heads aged there was a slight loss of high end that added a unique high end roll-off as the echoes decayed. David Gilmour Tone Building- Signal Chain Order - Kit Rae Check here for more Big Muffs to achieve the Gilmour tone. intro: 650ms, Coming Back To Life - 2015/16 live version: This is probably spring reverb from David's Twin Reverb. Both delays are in series with the delay volume around 75% and about 9 repeats. David Gilmour adjusting his MXR rack effects from April 1984, including the MXR 113 Digital Delay, and MXR Digital Delay System II. A good chorus like the Boss CE-2 or CE-5 can also be used in place of the flanger. If you break the beat into a four count, that second repeat would be on 4. I am talking about the natural reverb sound of the room or hall the amplifier or speaker cabinet was recorded in, or studio reverb added to simulate it. How to Nail Gilmour's "Comfortably Numb" Solo | Reverb News Money solo - studio version - multiple guitar tracks were recorded with different delay times (Binson Echorec 2 and Binson PE603): Next cut that delay time in half so you hear two repeats per beat, or 2/4 time. The specific delays he used were as I said the Binson Echorec, the MXR M-113 Digital Delay, and the TC Electronic 2290. David Gilmour is famous for his unique use of delay and echo. The delays are set in series like this: - In general, no - but sometimes, yes. For example, 380ms is your triplet time. I turn each effect on one at a time so you can hear how they add to the tone. Warm for an anlog delay usually refers to the high end roll-off decay, and warm for a digital delay usually means the repeats are not brighter or harsher than the original guitar signal, but are the same or have slightly less high end.
